quote:

Originally posted by Socrates_thinks:
Santy, did you miss Vivian's orginal question and observation, namely that advanced paddler technique uses mainly the torso and legs, and the arms? A whole body event. She is correctly noting that the comparison is actually between "legs (pedaling) vs legs/torso/arms (paddling).

The "arms vs legs" things is just another oversimplified, unsupported and self-serving Hobie marketing ploy. Like the "tug of war" it's meant to be dramatic (but not particularly informative or relevent).

As noted above putting together a good and roughly reliable test of her observation is not hard. One trip to the gym and two paddles/pedals in the water.

You are right on when you note it's about efficiency and actual performance on the water.

I got you Capt.

I was just over simplifying an over simplification to jump on that marketing nonsense I get tired of hearing.

quote:

There are a lot of ways to look at it, but even with maximal experience, it's likely virtually impossible to use a Hobie Mirage hull as a paddling/peddling demo. They just aren't designed for paddling for some reason or another. There are plenty of similar hulls that paddle much better. Even the Adventure glides like it has a chute out.

You drew the right conclusions. All these boats are purpose built to some degree or another and it's unfair to pick on one or another just for pickings sake even if there is some thread out to pick at. You makes your choice, pays your $$$$.$$ and you go fishing. Then likes and dislikes come into it and you makes another choice, pays more $$$$.$$ "unt zo viter"(sp).

Gosh, isn't it great being able to do that. So many choices so restricted a budget.

I absolutely intend to perform a fair comparison of pedal vs paddle, establish some honest static thrust and efficiency figures. KAPER drag/resistance analysis is possible, already has been done for the AI. In reviewing all Hobie's material it has become increasingly clear to me that they have some pretty sophisticated data but don't publish it. This hurts their credibility, and causes me to wonder why.

Either they need to publish, or they need to stop making unsubstantiated and simplistic claims and promoting rigged demonstrations.

The more sophisticated posters (including Vivian or Santy)are catching on. The marketplace is becoming more aware, more critical, more performance oriented.

Designs like the Disco are proof positive. Increasing sales of the S. African designs are proof positive.

Funny thing is Hobie really doesn't have to do this. It's a high concept sell aimed at newbies with $$$. There's no need to put down paddling or paddled kayaks, prop drives, et al. They'd sell just fine sans the false claims and putdowns.

Truth is the Hobie has a unique selling proposition that appeals to a certain limited market. The designs are generally heavy, wide and clunky for the most part, don't turn well, cannot be braced in an emergency and are unfinished works in progress.

Do an advanced search on posts authored by "Matt Miller" just on this site and you'll be presented with over 500 returns - the number of breakdowns, repairs, problems and concerns are eyeopening. Puts things in perspective.

Still I like the Hobie - but let's keep things in that perspective. A neat concept watercraft that requires considerable attention, adjustment, repair and upgrading. This indeed is one of the issues with a highly mechanized craft - it lacks the simplicity and reliability of paddled kayaks.

Personally I'm glad Hobie is in the fray, and I enjoy their creativity. But let's keep it real.

wake me up when someone incorporates the use of a POGO STICK in kayaking. They have come a long way.

http://www.power-stilts.com/pro.html?gclid=CMaLtoKniY0CFRuxgAodOSrOig

quote:

Originally posted by lconn4:
wake me up when someone incorporates the use of a POGO STICK in kayaking.

Is this close enough for you?
http://www.trampofoil.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Santiago II:
...it's likely virtually impossible to use a Hobie Mirage hull as a paddling/peddling demo. They just aren't designed for paddling for some reason or another. There are plenty of similar hulls that paddle much better. Even the Adventure glides like it has a chute out..

It just so happens that I can pedal my Hobie Adventure quite a bit faster than I can paddle AND I can also cruise faster, AND over the course of an hour, I go further than any of the paddling kayaks on the lake (including some experienced kayakers on their conditioning workouts).

Does this mean:
1. Pedals are more efficient?
2. Legs are stronger or have nore endurance?
3. I must be a lousy paddler?
4. The Adventure has more drag when paddling?
5. This is not a valid comparison for some other reason?

I hope I'm not being too simple minded here, but I would guess #1 or #2. Is it more complicated than that?

quote:

Originally posted by Santiago II:

quote:

Originally posted by vivian:

Here's where my brain doesn't follow the logic: the argument of legs being more powerful than arms. In a PROPER kayak forward stroke using a paddle you don't use just your arms. You power a long shaft with power blade with your torso and leg on power side. The torque or distance the blade travels with one properly executed forward stroke is larger than what can be generated with one pedal stroke. Since the blade travels from foot to hip. How much does the foot propelled drive deliver in torque for one pump of the pedal?

I would have to set up an experiment one of these days at FBO to actually time the difference using a heart rate monitor and speed through a mile effort. Do you know if anyone has tested the mirage drive or other foot propelled device against a kayak paddled using an efficient forward stroke?

I can tell you from a physiology perspective that your legs are usually significantly stronger than your upper body, as well as having the capacity from much longer duration of use (for the average person).The foot propulsion should also give you more continuous forward force against current and wind.

I personally think you can find a decent paddler in a reasonably fast tourer to out run a Hobie, but all bets would be off if you used a more efficient prop system in a fast touring hull.

I'd really like to see a head to head, but I don't know anyone who's tried it yet.

agreed on the strength differences of the lower body Vs the upper body. when peddling a bicycle you actually use your abs in conjunction with your legs - esp. if you have toe clips or clipless peddals. I would reason the because the mirage drive will use simmilar technique in a linear push/pull motion rather a cicular one. anyway just using leg power alone I could (when I was in racing trim) squat/leg press 3 times what I could bench press (which in addition to the chest muscles also relies on the muscles in the arms and core.) I was able to squat on a vertical press 600 pounds, I could only one rep 200 pounds on the bench press. so suffice to say a proper paddle stroke goes a long way to improving power output but it cannot hold a candle to the power of the leg if the power of the leg is properly harnesed. bear in mind though I was also extemely fit when I was racing bicycles and worked out constantly, but I'm still of the opinion that even in the "average" person there is a HUGE difference in power output and duration between the leg muscles and upper body muscle groups. enough so that I could confidently say that if you took two people of similar weight and sex, one an "average" person the other a well conditioned athlete who focuses on upper body work the "average" person can indeed lift/move more weight with the legs with more reps than the conditioned athlete can with his upper body only.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jesse Johnston,

Isn't it really technique vs technology? Anyone can use the Mirage drive well or at least to their individual limits while it takes instruction, dedication and fitness to paddle well.

But, let me observe that in order to paddle efficiently one must be leaning a bit forward of the vertical while opreating the Mirage at high rep rates one tends to recline a bit. Now att a bit of wind in the face, say 20 kts and what do yu have? With the Mirage you are slightly streamlind w/o any wind induced drag from the paddle while the paddler is less streamlined and using a drag inducing device. Even if the paddler has a great hull he/she will be operating at a disadvantage.

Now with the wind and the pedal one can possibly hover and still fish while the paddler is paddling to stay stationary and thus cannot fish efficiently.

We are, afterall, fisherpersons here on this site.

BTW, I'll grant you all Hobie naysayers the fact that the Hobie hulls are NOT optimized for speed, but rather for marketability. In that they excell.

good point Val.

really all too often I see many of the same heads here touting or bashing a particular hull design, demanding narrow quick designs and reccomending them to all who will listen. questing for more speed

I think it really could hinder growth of the sport and makes noobs look upon some of the more experianced Yak fishermen as Intimidating Eliteist Snobs. In fact I actually had a Noob buddy of mine who after seeing some of my photos and stories of Pelagic success start looking into buying a Yak. I told him to look into the prowler 15 - an excellent yak and a very easly available boat here on maui (as he is a smaller, older guy than me with a bum knee and a beat up back. I told him to steer clear of the X factor (which I allowed him to test paddle and which he fell in love with imediately all except when I told him that since I was kind enough to let him paddle it he had to put it on the roof of my truck. I had to intervene and do it for him because pride wouldn't let him back down and I could see he was going to hurt himself.) anyway so he goes out shopping for a yak and the first thing the sales person does is say "oh your friend is clueless and he paddles a fat slow kayak, trust me you will like this scupper pro TW (you can still buy those here by the way.) better than the prowler 15." My buddy Tony looks at the SPTW compared to the Prowler 15 sitting next to it and says "hey it looks quite skinny compared to this boat that my experianced friend reccomended I try out." the sales person actually asked my friend if he was a "spaz"! and that the SPTW was stable and wide enough for anyone. can you belive that?!
this is precicely the attitude that turns noobs off, and makes people outside of our sport look inside and say: "I don't want to hang out with these wankers"
Now of course I'm not knocking the the SPTW. it is "THE" day touring poly SOT, fast, light responsive, stable enough to be an everymans day tripper for sure. but is the best fishing platform in the world? not by a long shot. as a fishing platform the prowlers - both the 15 and the 13 are far more suited for fishing use. As kayak fishermen we should remember that we are FISHERPERSONS who happen to have discovered that a properly kitted out kayak is a supurb fishing platform. not the other way around. you see far more experianced fishermen try out a kayak for size than experianced kayakers who wake up one day and suddenly feel the urge to go hook a monster. Bottom line? what does it matter if hobie's claims about the mirage drive are unsubstantiated and suspect? the system works, it works well and people are buying them. not only does it work it really facilitates the fisherman in that he/she can have both hands free and does not need a PHD in engineering to use it, nor do they need a grant to afford it (though I wouldn't complain if prices for the adventure came down a bit...) is it the end all/be all of leg powered kayak fishing? probably not, but for now it is - because all the propeller heads and "I want charlies" are comming up with complicated and impractical designs that won't work for most people's applications - all that concerns them is speed and not practicality. you know what I and most other yak fishermen need? I need a boat that is fast enough, stable enough, and can pack all my fishing toys and still have room for my ass and 100 pounds (or more hopefully...)of dead fish aboard.
I do not need:
1)fancy complicated drive systems (the mirage drive is really quite idiotically simple. a paddle even more so. I like that in a propulsion device... K.I.S.S)
2)exotic superlight hull materials that belong on formula 1 cars and air superiority fighter jets. Poly and fiber glass work and work well especially for people who actually use thier boats and don't keep them in a garage and wax and wipe them with a clean diper every day. a fishing Kayak is a work boat.
3)sacrificing fishability for 2 mph worth of speed. If I can't hang over the side a little and bring a big fish aboard, or have to plan every single movement and have a counter balance for it... it's not a practical design for a fisherman.
4)incredibly sleek lines... under the water line
absolutely it's gotta be sleek, but on deck? a fishing yak should have accesible closeable storage all over the cockpit and within reach of the pilot. it should have places for everything. for a fisherman to look at a boat's deck and have to get "creative" to outfit it so that they can fish in it effectively is silly.
somtimes I wish that the most outspoken and vocal in terms of yak design of the Kayak fisherpersons on our forum would foucus on demanding a good enough speed, good enough handling, good enough stability, EXCELLENT fishability design...

rather than an EXCELLENT speed, EXCELLENT handling, Avanced stability, mediocre fishability design... after all there are already a plethora of these. All you need to do is drill some holes in a high end SOT touring yak, add some rod holders and you have a fast SOT that YOU can fish out of... sort of...

Jessie

Your right on.

I would call it functional design specification versus performance.