If I can turn it back to speed for a minute i gather from the many posts as well as the link by CT Angler that the highest practical cruising speed is something less than the hull speed. Most 12 footers cruise at 3.5 to 4 mph including Hobies. The Hull speed of a 12 footer is about 4.4 mph. that assumes a waterline of 11'. It increases directly with the square root of the waterline. In order to get a hull speed of 5.5 mph we need a waterline of 16.8 feet. That looks like an overall length of 19' to me.
In other words the return only comes at a pretty stiff price.

I have plans for a 17 ft yak with a 16.6 WL so not so probably not so extreme. I think the Hobie drive might have to come as a 2 speed to make 5.5 unless you can stand the torque you will have to generate at lower speeds. It sounds like it's already abt maxed out on pedal cadence at 4 or so. And we don't know what the drag of the fins does at higher speeds.

I would think that a fast Hobie drive would consist of smaller fins that somehow could be made to oscillate faster. This would be like having only second gear instead of only first. I'm not sure it would work and I can't see how it can be done. If you have to peddle faster it defeats the advantage of the drive since it's more tiring. If you gear it up then a full oscillation would take less than a full peddle stroke. What would be needed would be a way to generate a full back and forward oscillation of the vanes with only one full peddle stroke.
It's the Gourdian Knot of kayaking.

Glad to be here Riddler. Good to see all of you, Bernie, MrSinbad, etc... And thanks for the "Welcome Back".

Some excellent points have been raised by quite a few posters in here. I will not say I agree with all of them, but many I do. One of the nice things in being with Cobra is that we make our own molds, have our own ovens, do our own injection molding and as such... we CAN listen to what you have to say and adapt things, IF they are feasible.

My question is this... how fast do you want to go? Isn't this subjective?

Yes, fishing out there in KFS land is different From the West coast to the gulf coast to you guys on the N.E. Seaboard, but this does not mean the N.E. has more in common with Texas Fisherman than Fisherman here in California. What does someone in Texas need to paddle 8mph for if they are drift fishing the shallows for reds and flounder? Where as we have a large group of guys out here in Cali that regularly paddle 15 to 20 miles in a day as they fish.

8mph is too fast to troll for most fish out here, where as a nice 3.5mph is just right, but that is for ME... I'm interested in the "Why's" of this thread and maybe 3.5 is far too slow for you guys to troll. As you have pointed out... We DON'T know out here.

But I'd like to.

Jon Posts that Speed and stability are more important than Deck layout after a certain point... well where IS that point?

For my part, and on a personal level, not to bag on anyone, but while I think the prowler is a BEAUTIFUL kayak... I would NEVER own one. I like USABLE Storage, but once again... that is me. So if you want to have this conversation... lets talk SPECIFICS and let me know why you want to go fast.

A united front speaks volumes and this thread has merit and is very interesting, but there really has been no explanation as to WHY the posters on this thread want a long, fast kayak. So tell me what you are wanting to do, and then we'll see if we can somehow do it. Fair Enough?

And Santiago II, Good to see you as well. I have not posted with you in quite a long time. There are several things that make prices higher. (I would still like some examples though of where Cobra is 30% more.) Materials used, Processes used, etc. All I can say is that Cobra uses only the highest quality of materials, we make our own models in house, we make our molds at our NZ facility, we actually mold our own kayaks in house, and yes, we build in very nice profit margins for our dealers like Jon and Joey. But again, as I stated previously... we ARE working to address some things right now and are planning on revised 2005 pricing very soon.

So lets hear it guys.... ;-)

We're all ears.

Ric

Ric, the reason we want speed is for covering distance to get to where we want to fish. Often access is limited and where we wish to fish may be miles away. A more efficient hull will get us there with less effort. It's the same all along the coast and even inland. We don't troll life baits here much so trolling speed doesn't matter. Our fish tend to be oriented to structure so we don't often search open water for them like out west. We go to where they should be then fish the area thoroughly or we travel to flats and either standup fish, or wade the flats. Often our kayaks are used as access vehicles. I just sold a yak to a gent in the Great Lakes who paddles app. 8 miles, one way, to get to where he's going to fish. It's usually very windy and rough water too. It's a major shipping channel so he encounters big ships and all that goes with them. So he needs a yak similar to what we use in the salt.

As to layout, models like the Cobra Tourer is excellent so Cobra already does a great job on both the fishing ergonomics and storage. It has a good hatch layout, cockpit, beveled edges for mounting rod holders, etc. It's still all around the best. Where Cobra can improve is in getting rid of the winged bottoms of their hulls, and go to a more traditional bottom that has secondary stability. Redesign the bottom on a kayak like the Tourer, stretch it a bit, get rid of the hull slap, put the rudder tubing inside, add some rocker and if possible get it up to the 7-8 mph range and you've got a winner.

7-8 mph.....wow, that's going to be some engineering I want a hatch speciically created to be water tight, angled vertically to put rods in tot he yak. Preferably near the back of the yak so I can accessit from the seat. Say the front wall of the Tankwell, a five inche round waterproof hatch, open it and there is storage under the seat or along the side of the yak to place a rod or two for surf launches. Scott

How a yak performs in "sloppy" conditions is another big factor on the east coast. So. California's weather patterns and the east coast are two very different animals.
Compare the amount of small craft warnings for the same period of time and you will see a very large difference. Now that is not saying that folks should be out paddling in those SCW days, but if I only paddled on the pretty day days, my fishing time on the water would change.
My brother lives out west and has a boat in Dana Pt. We have traded many stories east to west, and I fish with him whenever I get out there. He laughs when I tell him about getting "spanked" by the weather. "There are so many good days out here, that we just don't go when it's somewhat snotty". I hate 'em for that .
Typically, some of the best fishing of the year on the east, is in the fall, fall means wind.
For myself, I want a yak that performs well in the slop. Not that I am paddlin in conditions where one should not be out,(at least when I start out, it's not). This to me is more important than any other feature. I know that there is no one deck layout that I am gonna feel is perfect.If it's a "wet" ride I'll make do, but if she performs well in the wind and the chop,and can make good time in those conditions, that's the yak I want. This yak only makes the nice days so much more enjoyable.
I may be in the minority, but if I am, it won't be for long, as folks get more time on the water, I am guessing more folks will be looking for the same. I think we are starting to hear this in this very thread.

Scott, we can dream. Since the 160 and P15 will do 6 I'm sure that the Heritage Exp has to be at least a mph faster. So faster hulls already exist. Now the top has to be fixed. That isn't that hard.

More and more kayak fishermen are going to want performance with ergonomics. Neither has to be seperate from each other. A redesigned top for the Exp. would be an big step in that direction and I know that the sales would be there.

Amen.

Ric:

I want a faster SOT for running down boils. Getting there 10 seconds sooner is often the difference between missed it and hook-up. For the open ocean around here there is a launch every ten feet so seaworthyness is more important than speed to me.

As to weighs less and costs more I just don't see this as a negative. After cycling for many years, this just seems like a big DUHh. You will pay 40-50% more for a bike that weighs as little as 3# less. The same goes for any human powered performance item. If it has a lifetime warranty what do I care if they want to try and make it light...I say THANKS for going there!

I too look forward to seeing what the revitalized Cobra kicks out this spring, and working with them in the future.

I guess I'm kind of out of this for speed, as at my size I'm not going to get it and quite frankly it's not as important to me as ergonomics. I do think, Jon, you are right we can have both. A team to sesign a hull and a team to design a deck are not mutually exclusive. But how do you get the ergonics done right? I know, ask us. What about a modular system....as system that allow for different deck configurations based on inserts. A bare hull, kind of canoe looking with scupper sin it could be made, then inserts droppped in with scuppers that line up, a tankwell or storage in the rear, tankwell or storage in the front, different seating arrangements, cockpit flat for sight fishing or center consoled for accessories. How about a system that had a spot to accomodate a 9ft tube, that would pressure fit intot the deck and act as a rod holder...lot's of ideas. S

They make three piece SOT's, then a modular would be doable...and pretty cool I might add. Different colors. Neat stuff personally. S

Well,
When Rik worked for Malibu, I bought a Malibu, so we'll see what magic Rik can work at Cobra.

I have to agree with scwafish, that's pretty much what speed is all about and why we need it.

When you consider the penalty that water and wind take on a human powered kayak, any little bit of extra performance helps.

Hey I heard gas was 2 cents cheaper just across town

Ric, I’m really glad you have taken an interest in this thread and we have your ear. I would encourage all you guys that have something to suggest, to take this opportunity and make the best of it. I see that your post is very focused on a couple of topics, and that is a good thing… I hope you will get the answers you are seeking and I will give you my thoughts on it…

quote:

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Originally posted by Rikshaw:
…What does someone in Texas need to paddle 8mph for if they are drift fishing the shallows for reds and flounder? …8mph is too fast to troll for most fish out here…

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Every yak can go slow (just stop paddling!), but, not every yak can go fast! Like Jon said, “A more efficient hull will get us there with less effort…” but also in less time. The goal is to be at certain locations in the least amount of time so you can maximize the time you spend fishing. I really don’t care what the shape of the hull is (long/short, planning/displacement, wide/narrow, shaped like a cigar/sheet of plywood, etc.) as long as my goal is achieved. If there are other alternatives out there I would like to hear them. (I can hear KenL screaming Hobie right now ) The cruising/top speed of the yak has nothing to do with the trolling speed, but more about getting to different fishing spots. Also, when fish are breaking, I don’t want to be here… I wanna be there, and now!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Rikshaw:
...I like USABLE Storage, but once again... that is me”

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I’m with you on that… most manufacturers really don’t consider the storage needs of the yak fisherman. When they designed their yak, they have the recreational paddler in mind. Consideration should be given to things such as deck layout, hatch locations, size of hatches, access to hatches, size, location, and access to tankwells, etc. One example of usable storage done right, is the Emotion Fisherman, where you can store and access everything including the kitchen sink! Maybe that amount of storage is a bit extreme, but it should be used as a model to follow in the theory/design stages.

Lastly, I can see where this thread is leading along with the nature of your questions and I will say/suggest the following:

We should start an evolving/growing document/discussion and call it a User Requirement (at least, that is what we call it in the Corporate world)

· Have Jon/Joey start a new Forum to accumulate/codify these ideas/discussions for you, beagle/Cobra/Emotion/WS/OK/etc. to reference if desired. Very valuable ideas/suggestions and feedback will be the result. We will all learn something.
· Start a new thread regarding for each design attribute so we can fully discuss, bash, and hash out what is wished for versus what can be delivered. For example, C0ckpit Layout – center hatch/no hatch, center rib, size shape, anticipated use/no center rib, footwell steps or smooth, scupper hole(s), etc. etc. By the time everyone is finished, you will know exactly what kind of yak is desired.
· Develop a checklist of sorts and consider where and how each design aspect will be used so you don’t end up with a regionalized product and may not be suitable to certain potential customers… for example, the discussion on the size of the WS T160 front hatch not being able to hold a yak cart… what is it going to be used for? what else will be stored? who is going to use it? when will it be used (any restrictions by weather/season)? where is it going to be use (West Coat, East Coast, Australia, high/low crime areas, etc.) Feedback should include all geographic locations and I’m sure billybob and his mates will pitch in when asked.

What do you say Ric?

Scott, 7-8 MH is already done regularly by the surf skis and I quote from a previously referenced site… “the FUTURA II can be paddled up to 8 knots [not just 8MPH], suitable for extreme conditions or for a camping trip…” The challenge now is to get that speed in a fishing yak. I would love to be able to attain that speed!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by beagle:
…”but if she performs well in the wind and the chop, and can make good time in those conditions, that's the yak I want… This yak only makes the nice days so much more enjoyable. I may be in the minority, but if I am, it won't be for long, as folks get more time on the water, I am guessing more folks will be looking for the same. I think we are starting to hear this in this very thread.”

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I’m with you 100% on this one and consider my voice added!!! Let’s call this a design requirement, and I had (most of) it listed on my earlier detailed post in the beginning.

Jon, I agree with you about your suggestions for the Cobra Tourer and I have a couple of different suggestions to make, but that is the subject of a different thread/conversation. If it’s possible, morph the Heritage Expedition/T160 hull to a revised Tourer c0ckpit, and stretch it to 17’ or 18’, I think we are almost there.

quote:

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Originally posted by JonS:
“More and more kayak fishermen are going to want performance with ergonomics. Neither has to be separate from each other. A redesigned top for the Exp. would be an big step in that direction and I know that the sales would be there.”

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Jon, you are soooooo right. If the manufacturers and their reps will take note of the number of views on this thread they will see the ticker just spinning off the dial… When I bumped this thread up on 1/13, I was on page 6 and the view count was about 3200… now take a look! We are now on page 9 and going strong with 4900 views. Even if you discount the moderators/administrators that check a couple of times a day, you will conclude that many folks are following this thread/topic… my conclusion?! YES, THERE IS DEFINITE INTEREST (i.e., A MARKET) IN HIGH PERFORMANCE FISHING SOT!!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrsinbad,

IMHO, Jon, Scott and Ed summed it up pretty well.

Jon mentioned distance -
In New England, we have a very difficult time finding launch locations because many towns restrict parking to townies or launches don't exist because the coast is over built. We paddle distance to get to prime time fishing structure and in the fall, besides battling winds, chase flocks of birds following bait schools targeted by stripers and blues. Many of our days start out sunny and turn nasty in a hurry. Also, I expect the guys down the east coast run into the same conditions as we folks in NE.

Scott suggested rod storage. I've toyed with an idea of tethering a rod tube for my fly rods to the deck so I could access them when desired and protect them when not in use. One of the problems casting a fly rod, the fly always finds something to snag. Last year I carried two fly rods off the stern. When casting in windy conitions several times I wrapped a fly around the other rod.

Ed summed up the rest.

Rik, welcome aboard and looking forward to an exchange of ideas and lies (we're fishing people here)

quote:

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Originally posted by Rikshaw:
And Santiago II, Good to see you as well. I have not posted with you in quite a long time. There are several things that make prices higher. (I would still like some examples though of where Cobra is 30% more.) Materials used, Processes used, etc. All I can say is that Cobra uses only the highest quality of materials, we make our own models in house, we make our molds at our NZ facility, we actually mold our own kayaks in house, and yes, we build in very nice profit margins for our dealers like Jon and Joey. But again, as I stated previously... we ARE working to address some things right now and are planning on revised 2005 pricing very soon.


Ric

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RIk,

Take the two examples from before

MII (603.00) vs. Tandem (793.00)

Sea Dart 17 (799.00) vs. Cobra Exped (1100.00+).

But competiton is a good thing for us fisherfolks. Hopefully that will give us that fast kayak.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Santiago II,

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
Hey I heard gas was 2 cents cheaper just across town

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If everyone buys their gas at the cheapest station, the other stations will have to lower their price to compete. Same capitalism drive the creation of better kayaks....see the connection?

It sounds like a 18 foot touring boat but maybe a couple of inches wider for stability. Sit on top style with large front hatch for rolleze cart and tankwell behind the cockpit and lets not forget sides that flush mount rod holders work well with. A cockpit that takes ramballs for all our stuff and your not sitting in water and your feet are dry. And laid up in real light fiberglass for under $2500

when was the last time you saw gas stations lower their prices in competition? Yeah, the two on the corner, and the one down the street charges 8 cents more a gallon. I agree competition tends to make things better for consumers. Not sure that applies to kayak. Gas is Gas, same where ever, yaks is totally different. I think most yakkers will take the yak that most suits their needs and put cost as a second or third issue. In fact, you, if they come out with "the right yak", speed,layout, performance and a baby tush smooth bottom, are you going to drop double the price? 1500 bucks? Doubt it seriously, but I think alot of people would look at that and say that's the price of having "the" yak. Just my opinion of course

I would imagine that a 19' fiberglass yak that's maybe 25" wide could serve as the basis for our 8 mph boat. But how many would have to be made to get the price down to $2500? Now how big is the market for $2500 fishing kayaks? How much would it weigh? It's going to be longer than your vehicle in all probability and you sure as hell better tie it down both front and rear. All that being said you're not going to drag it over the sand and rocks like we do with tupperware. I just don't know.